410 Gearboxes, differences and 4 to 5 speed conversions etc.

[ScottieJ]

After a few people being interested in converting their 4 speed 410s to 5 speed I thought I'd do a bit of research into your options, this is a work in progress so until I have done more research I cannot Guarantee that all info is 100% correct but hopefully we can build up a good bit of info for anyone who wants to convert their 410 to a 5 speed. If you have any additional input, good photos of SJ gearboxes for comparison etc. then post them up so we can work out all the differences and see what is compatible.

Pre November 1984 sj410 gearboxes had a shorter tail section and longer input shaft, with these they locate into a bearing in the end of the crankshaft not into a bearing in the flywheel.

In November 84 that they swapped to the later 410 gearbox, essentially a hybrid 410/413 gearbox that uses a 410 bellhousing section and sj413 gears and tail section as well as a shorter input shaft, the shorter input shaft is located in a bearing in the flywheel (not in the crank like pre 11/84) with this they also changed the gearbox crossmember and the gear lever position ends up further back.

You can convert a 4 speed to 5 speed if you have a later 4 speed (Series 3/4/5 11/84 onwards) gearbox and a 1.3 5 speed gearbox. Take the case assembly, the upper and the lower, the input shaft and the input shaft bearing retainer of the SJ 410 and install the case extension, the forks and the rest of the gears from the Samurai gearbox. The hole in the floor needs extending about 1" and the crossmember mounting will also need attention as the Sammi gearbox is longer than the 1.0. Also the rear of the case needs some machining for a bearing for the 5th gear

Also bear in mind that post 88 samurai 5 speed boxes have a lower 5th gear.

I will take a pic of a 410 4 speed later when i'm in the workshop but here's a few pics to try and identify differences.

410 5speed with short input shaft

410_5sp.jpg (42.04 KiB) Viewed 67152 times

(94)Samurai 5speed (you can see that the lever position is about 1" further back)

0802_4wd_07_z+1994_suzuki_samurai+transmission.jpg (76.79 KiB) Viewed 67152 times

[ScottieJ]

A good write up I just found using a Super Carry/Bedford Rascal 5 speed gearbox.

http://www.lj10.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5571" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TITCH]

Ah,

can anyone send me that link please..or have I to join the LJ forum??

Thanks,
Titch

[ScottieJ]

I think you need to join the LJ forum to see the thread?

That reminds me I never did take a pic of a 410 4speed for this thread, i'll do that today.

[TITCH]

I'll do that too!
thanks,

Titch

[Nepomuk]

It's done:
The remodeling of my SJ410K with type1 / 2 gearbox and early Transferbox to 5-speed:
SJ410 1-2 early type transmission (with a long gear shaft + pilot bearing in the crankshaft) exchange
a 5-speed gearbox type 3-4-5-6-7 (with a short drive shaft + pilot bearing in the flywheel). The old clutch is in it, in conjunction with the release bearing of the late Gearbox.
An existing F8A or F10A flywheel will be turned out on my Lathe from 19.25 to 26mm to accommodate the original bearing 6000 2Z of the later models.

Engine removal

Early-Type Transmission 1-2 with a long shaft

5-speed manual gearbox castings Rear case number CA 24771-80400

5-speed manual gearbox serial number

5-speed transmission casting number Bottom Casing CA 24721-80400

5-speed transmission casting number Top Housing CA 24711-80400

5-speed transmission casting number Top Housing CA 24711-80400

5-speed manual transmission gearbox casting number holder

5-speed transmission side view Here is a contrast to the 4-speed transmission from Type 3 is visible on the rear housing.

5-speed transmission Front View



The clamping of the LJ80 flywheel on the lathe in 250mm 3-jaw chuck where it fits barely.


Original measure 19.25 mm

Dimensional inspection after machining to 26.0 mm

The Flywheel is ready to install the Bearing now

Ready for mounting on the motor

Transmission mount should be changed

Type1 Transferbox with small flanges and 4WD switch

The flange does not fit. The holes and centering hole are different to the drive shafts of the later models

Determine shaft center to center of the universal joint

and then search the garage for parts

Type-1/2 gear installed yet

Gear Holder Type 1/2 from above

and bottom

Mass Comparison Type1 / 2 and 5-speed transaxle that was installed from Type3

unfortunately, the ruler reflects the flash

the total length is equal for both transmissions with shaft

approx 820mm length of installation at both transmissions

The gear shift lever is from Type3 displaced about 2.5 cm further back

and the housing is also slightly wider

The gearbox mounting is also placed 2.5 cm. 5-speed forward, backward 410Typ 1/2 with fitted original holder and silent block

Mounted again for comparison with lever

mounted shift lever from the side

Yet quickly removed the 1Liter engine from the donor vehicle ...

Hole spacing and centering still not fit to the Transferbox. So to expand on the 410 Type3 the universal joint shaft and fit the flange of type 1/2

The newly-built gearbox bracket left, SJ410Typ1 / 2, center, right from Type3

and so does the holder assembled

The old type 1/2 holder is eccentric as you can see

The gear sits eccentrically at the factory to the frame. Therefore you have to install the new holder until a trial basis, measure, mark and drill holes for silent block then the holder

The central bore of the smaller connecting plate is drilled 5mm eccentrically. So you can still install it in 4 positions for fine adjustment

As above, the holder is attached with 8 bolts M8

The new flange fit now to the transfer case

Later T-Boxes have thicker shafts and bigger flanges, you can also not simply replace a T-Box when the hole pattern is not right

Transmission Connection plate with silent block attached to the gearbox

Here we see that the silent block sits 5mm eccentrically

And here is the holder assembled

The gearbox is centered in the tunnel

The propeller shaft is fairly straight on the transfer case and the flat iron for cross bracing I added spacers 15mm down

Ready for a test drive

So, after a visit to the Ederlake-meetings and daily drive to work, I'm pretty excited about the 5th gear. The 1st gear is slightly longer than the old gear. This could turn out in extreme terrain and alpine tours as a disadvantage. But that would still be adapted by other tires. The average consumption was 8 liters of Super 95 and top speed 119km / h at 5000rpm, according to Navigationsystem. I still have retreaded tire size 6.00-16 8PR not well balanced.

SJ-transfer case
Model
EarlyT-Box1 .............................................. Late T-box2
-toApril/1983 SJ 410 SJ 410 7/1983- ........................ (from from May 83,Europe July 83
.................................................. from Vin JSAOSJ40000540001 convertible ..
.................................................. JSAOSJ40V00540001 Van .............
.................................................. JSAOSJ40T00501001 Pickup
(my car was sold at 06/10/83 by Zuki Germany )
.................................................. JSAOSJ41000501001 ............. Longbody
Primary reduction ratio (gear reduction)
1.077 ... 42/39 ........................... 1.709 ... 53/31
Secondary reduction
High ...62/42 1.476 ............................ 0.924 ...49/53
Low ...57/24 2.375 ............................ 1.468 ...47/32
Total transmission
High.. 1.590.......................................1.580 ... 53 / 31-49/53
Low.. 2557 ...................................... 2511 ... 53/31-47/32



SJ410 about to -83 ....................SJ410 from 8/83......SJ410 from 9/84
T-Box1 ........................................... T-Box2 ..... T-Box2 + new transmission
Total gear ratios Low
1.gear ............................. 33.249.. 32.652 .... 32.372
2.gear ............................. 20.446.. 20.078 .... 20.088
3rd gear ...........................14.937.. 14.669 .... 14.678
4.gear ............................. 10.512.. 10.323 .... 10.322
Rev. .............................. ...34.910.. 34.283 .... 35.747
.
Overall reduction ratios High
1.gear .............................. 20.676..20.545 ......20.369.
2.gear .............................. 12.717.. 12.634 .... 12.640
3rd gear ..............................9.290... 9.230 ......9.236.
4th gear ..............................6.535... 6.495.......6.495
Rev. ............................... ..21.707.. 21.571 .....22.493

Transmission to-8/84 .............................. from about 9/84-
.................................................. .. primary gear 35/23
Primary reduction, number of teeth:
1.476 31/21 ...................................... 1.521 35 / 23
Secondary reduction gear reduction
1st gear 2.143 30/14 ........ ............... 2.062 33/16
2nd gear 1.318 29/22 ........................ 1.280 32/25
3rd gear 0.963 26/27 ....................... 0.935 29/31
4.gear ----- 1-1 ------- ........................ ----- 1:1 -----
5.gear ---------------- ....................... 0.522 ..44/23 (or 0.568..44/25)
Rev. 2.250 27/12 ....................... 2.277 33/18-41/33

Overall ratio
1st gear 3.163 ................................ 3.136
2nd gear 1.945 ................................ 1.946
3rd gear 1.421 ................................ 1.422
4th gear 1.000 ................................ 1,000
5.gear ......................................... 0.795 (or 0.86)
Rev. 3.321 ................................. 3.463

axle 4.111 Teeth 37-9

[Edweird]

Thanks for the tutorial for getting a 5 speed in a type 2 Nepomuk.

I got as far as finding out I needed a different half-shaft then had to put the 4 speed back in because I needed it back on the road. Fortunately, you can leave the bearing in the flywheel when you put the 4 speed back in.

What did you do about the hole in the transmission tunnel?

[Nepomuk]

Hi Ed.
I had the big Hole in the Tunnel reduced with a screwed Metalplate. I just had to remove that plate and change the early Rubberpart to the late one. Years ago, this car had an accident and the preowner has cutted the Body around the floor and welded an LJ-Body onto the floor. It still has a 410Tunnel. I dont know what else he has changed.
I took the late 410-shaft (4+5 Speed BigTransmission=similar) and fitted the early 410-Flange on.
The early Gearbox uses "Bracket rear mounting 11740-80001.
The late Gearbox uses " Mounting Engine rear 11710-80000 or 11710-80010.
Both didnt fit, because also Frame is lightly different, so I had to made a new Bracket.
Best Regards

[Nepomuk]

I got some new Part Numbers and Info about 2 different SJ410 5-Speed Gearboxes
5th short 0,86
24351-60A00.......44 Teeth
24250-83010...... 25 Teeth
5th long 0,795 = (also used in SJ413/4 up to SJ413/7 + SK410)
24351-83000...... 44 Teeth
24250-83000.......23 Teeth
Both 44s are different Size
Look at the SJ410 5th in UK
5th Gear Top = 0,79

Santana Madrid Advert of 1988: SJ410 JX, VX, JHT have 5th with 0,86

and also in the SJ413 exist different ratios

[silverfox]

I acquired sometime ago a SJ410 "F" (reg), (a special edition of some sort).
The body was scrapped but I keep various bits to keep my Jap 1988 "E" reg going.

That special edition SJ410 had a five speed box in it.
It has a part number on the gear box of: CA 24771-80400.
I am not sure of its state of health nor am I sure it will fit into my Jap 1987/88 SJ.
The over all dimensions look to be OK at first glance.

Firstly will it fit?
Secondly is it worth the exercise of doing it up as my four speed works well?

Hope someone can help me on this one.
Otherwise I may have a five speed box available for sale.

Roger.