Traybacked Samurai

[farmerboy4]

Hello used to be member years ago and figures I'd join back up to show my toy and ask some advice

Here my 92 Samurai, spec is
1.6 16v Vitara engine with complete Vitara loom, clocks and fuel tank, Range Rover 150a alternator
Original gearbox
D and G tuning super low rock lobster
Standard axle internal with rear lockrite
Rear disk conversion
3" lift springs (under axles), D-Flex shackles, angled Astra Shocks
X-eng Transfer box disk brake
7.5 GV rims cuts and rewelded for super off set
265/75r16 Special tracks
Full external cage with traybacked rear end.
Front and rear winch's
2x batteries, led lights front and rear

Looking to upgrade the axle internals and in considering trial tough long feild HD shafts
Has anyone got any experience of these as they seem pretty good value compared to swapping axles for Toyota ones etc.

Cheers Andrew

[ScottieJ]

Welcome back. Think I remember you if your username used to also be Farmerboy

I run Trail Tough double toughs, and an RSmfg rear full float conversion. It's been pretty bomb proof on 33" tyres.

There's also the option of RCVs and they are even stronger.

[Rabid Rhino]

Nice rig !!
Got any pics of the X-eng tcase disc brake ? Do they still make it ?

I've got RCVs in the front & Longfields in the rear, only because RCV don't do rear shafts.
Longfield may not be what they used to be 15 years ago (no longer US made) but compared with the competition I think they're a clear 2nd place for the front and the best for the rear.

I did RTV trials and challenges in the UK & never bothered with aftermarket shafts as factory 413 axles were fine but for over here in the US I had to upgrade for the more extreme terrain and it's amazing how much punishment they survive.

PS, this is on a slightly lighter under powered vehicle... LJ80 with carb 1600, 4:1 tcase, 5.1:1 diffs in 413 front & narrowed Vitara Rear with ARBs on 33s.

Do the maths on the half shafts front and rear vs the toy axles because no matter how much you build them, Sami axles will never compare with stock toys... Which you can always build up even stronger later. Shafts and lockers are almost the same price.

[ScottieJ]

Yes yota diffs are stronger but diff strength is seldom a problem on tyres up to 35” with samurai axles. Here’s some maths for you regarding full float rear shafts vs yota. Pulled from Auszookers. I honestly don’t think it’s worth doing a yota swap unless going above 35” tyres
Personally I would never bother with uprated semi-float rear shafts, converting to full float has many benefits as well as strength without that much extra cost. Stronger wheel bearings, easy disc brake conversion and the fact it takes under a minute to pull both shafts without even taking the wheels off....makes it super easy to pull a diff if needed.


Quote:

There's some interesting data in there Tanshi - some of which I've read before, but it was a looong time ago.

It supports why I don't like hilux axles. It also supports my theory that because we already have completed axles, it's hard to justify the complexity of a spline upgrade.

OK, maximum torque of a stock hilux shaft:

6248 ft/lb

Maximum torque of a 28 spline floater in 300M

8668ft/lb

Maximum torque of a 26 spline floater in 300M

8046 ft/lb

So, my rear axles are 30% stronger than stock hilux, and Tanshi, yours will be almost 40%


However, that's not the whole story, not by a long shot. A Hilux is a semifloating axle, so the more you load it from bending force (like from a bounce) the weaker it gets to twisting force. I've seen it written many times that converting to a full floating axle of the same size adds 40% in strength over a semifloating axle of the same spline. That might be optimistic, but lets assume it's true.

Lets also assume you put 4340 axles in your hilux rear end. They're $300 from TG + shipping.

4340 is 1.9 times stronger than stock material.

So, a toyota rear axle in 4340 should fail at 11871 ft/lb, which is super impressive. However, this is where it gets complicated. These figures are for failure in a jig, which doesn't bend the axle, it just breaks it clean, and it's why there's no distinction made in that data between semi and full float.

so, I'm going to assume that a semifloat axle looses up to 40% of its strength if its bent hard whilst being driven, like you're landing a bounce under power. I've broken stock sierra axles like this, and it's how Gregc broke his EN-26 rear floater.

So that drops the 11871 back to 7123 ft/lb

Compare the weight, and ultimate cost of a hilux rear axle with discs, gears, locker and 4340 axles, and it's why I think that a vitara based floater is a very good option.

The provisos are that if you're running a buggy like Ethan's or Appsies, you're not going to get away with suzuki stuff - 37-40" stickies and rock are going to exceed 8000 ft/lb, not to mention the front which is some way under 8K ft/lb, even with DT's, but you might not get away with hilux axles either, and need to look at a toyota full float axle like a 60 series, which I think are superior for suuzki buggy use.

A word on comparitive front end strength. The best DT's are 4340, and 26 spline throughout. That takes the inner axles up to 6794 Ft/lb. Stock hilux inner axles fail at 5000 ft/lb on Bobby Long's (RIP) axle breaking machine. Once again, you need to go to Cromo hilux axles to beat a 4340 DT suzuki front for axle, and possibly even CV strength.

As for the X-eng handbrake, they don’t use a very good calliper. I’ve removed mine and gone back to a drum after running an x-eng since they first came out (8-10yrs??)with a lot of mods to it to make it better. They are great when they are working and the pads are fresh but they need adjusting all the time.The pads don’t last long and are expensive to replace. Also the cable routing for them completely sucks so they don’t like to release, once they get stuck you can kill a set of pads in under a day. It’s just a pretty bad design in general, I know a lot of people that have ran them and removed them.

[mike harris]

I was very hard on mine last weekend on 38.5 treps, I think a lot of it is how you drive, and weight.

[mike harris]

Cool truck man I like it !

[Anton]

Welcome back!

Awesome SJ. Love it.

One thing to add to what ScottieJ said about hilux axles:

Hilux axles have bigger casings than SJ ones. Because of this, a friend with a Landcruiser on 32" tyres was grounding out on stuff that I sailed through on 31" tyres. I think that basically, you need a 2 inch bigger tyre with Hilux axles to match the SJ ground clearance - i.e. on Hilux axles you'd need 33" tyres to match the ground clearance of an SJ on standard axles with 31's.

Also, SJ axles mean you're often not getting stuck in landy ruts because they're narrower, so you always run with at least 1 wheel out of the rut.

Yota axles are heavier and wider though, which can add stability.

[Jordi]

As said, its a lot easier to fit uprated shafts or convert the back to full float than fit Yota axles.

Mine has a rockwatt conversion, uprated shafts all round.

Take some abuse on the occasions its used.

[mike harris]

If the options there fit toyota axles, that my opinion from using my truck in challenges and actually abusing components. There's even more parts for Toyota axles than suzuki axles, I wish I fitted them to mine when I had it coiled.

[ScottieJ]

I would say tyre size has a major role in that one Mike, probably more so than the competition use that’s why I said up to 35” in my original reply.

I would actually skip Yota and go straight to patrol for comp use and 36”+ tyres.

We break yota based axles quite often at comps in the buggy on 37” treps (not stickies). Blown Chromo shafts/cvs, snapped kingpins on the 6shooter knuckles etc. Stock patrol axles work out cheaper as you don’t need all the upgrades to be stronger than uprated yota.